A few good considerations about what I posted here below from Haemish. (thread on F13)

But I still wonder if they replaced the old Haemish with a Shild clone.

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4) RvR does not equal PvP. DAoC is not a PvP game and neither will be this game. We want people to be able to roleplay and we also want them to be able to play the game without worrying about getting ganked from the moment they enter the game by someone more powerful than them.

Yes, DAOC IS A PVP GAME. It just happens to have a significantly large and boring and grindy PVE game attached to it, making the biggest factor in PVP success being time invested in the PVE game. But make no mistake, DAOC is a PVP game. It just isn’t an OPEN PVP game.

5) The building and maintaining of community is quite important to Mythic whether it is in the game or out of it. The reason we don’t host our own forums is that we either do it well (which means full-time admins, added costs) or we would rather not do it at all. We will consider setting up our own forums for this game but most likely, they will be private to keep the noise level down. Now, if we make them private, we will of course invite all the people who have been participating in forums like these to join us. We will also have ultra-private forums for beta-testers as we do for DAoC and Imperator.

Translation: We will only listen to ourselves and our closest sycophants, just like we did with DAoC.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as I think official forums are huge wastes of resources and IQ points. But don’t make that sound like it’ll be an “open community” because it won’t be. DAoC isn’t.

Folks,

the source is here. Since it’s late I’m just pasting what he said to read it tomorrow.

Folks,

First, I want to thank everyone for their kind words regarding the announcement of our first Warhammer game. Everyone at Mythic is quite excited about the possibilities that this partnership with the fine folks at Games Workshop with bring about to both companies. Secondly, as to the game that we have begun work on, it will be a game that is focused on the RvR aspects of Warhammer. We will reveal more details over the coming months but for now, I think the best way to describe the game I have envisioned is the simple phrase “This time it’s WAAAGH!” Third, I apologize in advance for what will be infrequent appearances here and other Warhammer-related sites. It’s not that I don’t love to chat (as the guys at GW can tell you, getting me to shut up is more of a problem), but I have a game design to work on after all.

To answer some brief questions that have popped up here and on other forums:

1) This is not a continuation of the Warhammer Online project. Mythic is working closely with GW to create a new vision for a Warhammer online game.

2) The development time-line for the game is a tad over 2 years but given our experience and existing code-base (Dark Age of Camelot, Imperator and others), we believe we can meet that schedule.

3) We want to pull in as much material from the Warhammer material as we can to make this a great game. I don’t care where it comes from, if it’s Warhammer (Fantasy Battles, RPG, Warmaster) and it also can be part of a great game, I want to try to fit it in this game. This game will not be DAoC2 with the name of Warhammer attached.

4) RvR does not equal PvP. DAoC is not a PvP game and neither will be this game. We want people to be able to roleplay and we also want them to be able to play the game without worrying about getting ganked from the moment they enter the game by someone more powerful than them.

5) The building and maintaining of community is quite important to Mythic whether it is in the game or out of it. The reason we don’t host our own forums is that we either do it well (which means full-time admins, added costs) or we would rather not do it at all. We will consider setting up our own forums for this game but most likely, they will be private to keep the noise level down. Now, if we make them private, we will of course invite all the people who have been participating in forums like these to join us. We will also have ultra-private forums for beta-testers as we do for DAoC and Imperator.

6) As to the question of religion in Warhammer, we expect it will play a role. Religion doesn’t in Imperator because Imperator is meant to be a pure sci-fi game. We’d be foolish to do the same here.

7) As a friend of mine at GW says in describing what we want to do with this game, Warhammer will not be happy-clappy land, we’ll leave dancing orcs, prancing elves to other guys. :)

8) I have a long-standing relationship with a number of the people at GW, and I hold them, and the IP, in the highest regard. Nothing that we are doing is in any way a sign of disrespect for what has gone before. It’s a new day, a new vision but the old world.

Best,

Mark Jacobs
President/CEO
Mythic Entertainment

P.S. It’s going to be a lot of fun…

Folks,

A few more quick notes:

1) We are not intending to do a “purist” version of a WH-based game. Why? Well, first, there is no such thing. Warhammer is an incredibly rich environment which not only supports various games but the individual games have changed over the decades. Additionally, even if we were going to focus on one particular game (let’s say the FRPG) and even on one edition of the rules, there would still be disagreements over things like rule interpretations. I prefer to look at what we are doing in terms of our game(s) being a “true” interpretation of WH. Now, this is not to say that this is the AMAZING, LAST, FINAL and PENULTIMATE TRUE version of WH but rather simple our attempt to create a great game that feels like it belongs to the WH world. Of course, we will disagree over what is true WH or not but that’s why we will have lots of help in order to ensure we deliver on what we promise.

2) Both Mythic and GW are in agreement that we can create an RvR game that is based on the WH IP. So, for a little while longer, have some faith that we have way to allow for various sides to beat each other over the heads with really nasty weapons (and magic, don’t forget the magic) in a way that fits in with the WH IP. Remember, this world has been around for a long time and if you search the IP carefully, you will see lots and lots of opportunities for all sorts of mayhem. We will talk about how this will work in detail once we get to the next stage of the project.

3) In terms of Mythic running out of money when we are working on this game; no worries there otherwise GW would have gone running off in the opposite direction when we worked this deal out.

4) In terms of the art look, we will not be attempting to recreate WoW nor WO as neither look fits what we want to do here. One of the great things about WH is that it is an incredibly rich world (from an artistic sense) and we can draw on different looks in order to make our vision come to life. The only thing I can assure you is that some of you will disagree with whatever look we pick, that is the nature of this business. No worries though, as long as you keep the rotten fruit and vegetables coming our way along with the criticism, at least we can keep feeding our team late into the night. :)

5) To answer Linhart’s questions (can’t have you burning to death, at least not for two years), yes, this will be an advancement-based system. Even if it is RvR-based, we don’t want it to be Warhammer: Doom, this will be an RPG. As to dynamic player-influenced content, yeap, that’s part of the plan.

One last little bit before I go is that as we develop this game there will be times where we will disagree with each other. You may think that I or my company are a bunch of barely-skilled chimps who haven’t the vaguest idea of what we are doing. While I hope that isn’t the case, all I ask is that we are polite and respectful to each other. If that simple request is met, we will continue to be able to engage in discussions and information-sharing here. One of our rules is that the team will never attack any poster personally nor rudely (and if they do, it will never happen again) and I hope that the posters here follow the same rule. If so, we’ll get on just fine. Again, I am simply asking that players express themselves in a civilized, polite and professional manner and not that they simply parrot the Mythic/GW line.

It’s going to be great, glorious fun and I’m looking forward to the next two years with great anticipation.

Mark

Folks,

Regarding GW’s input in the whole design process I think it is safe to say that they will quite involved with it and not just protecting their IP. It’s safe to say this because the process has already started. :) We’d be foolish not to try to use all the resources we have at had to do this project and that means talking to some of the GW guys and get their thoughts, ideas, etc. on what they would like to see in this game. While Mythic is indeed driving the design, we are doing that in close consultation with the GW guys. The initial vision for the game may have started with me but by the time it is done, GW, other Mythic personnel and maybe even people who post here and in other places may see some things they suggest in the game. FYI, I’m currently combing through hundreds of pages of documentation from guys at GW and elsewhere to see what ideas can become a part of this game.

In terms of making this game like WoW, not likely. I have the utmost respect for Blizzard and a long-time friendship with a number of people there. Their game is their game, just as this will be our game. I have no more desire to make this game like WoW than I do like EQ, WO or any other game out there. This game needs to stand on its own, apart from what has gone before.

Finally, as to skill-based vs. advancement-based, the game will be advancement-based. Now, do we want the game to feel grindy? Nope, not at all but nor do we want to make it so somebody comes in off the street and can, due to superior reflexes, hardware setup, etc. be able to kill players who have been playing the game for a while. For those gamers, Doom, Unreal, etc. are a better choice than this game will be. At its core, this game will have more in common with an RPG rather than an FPS.

Mark

Ahah, I read it. It was sort of funny.

Really, try to look around for some ballast or this guy will take off.

Now excuse me, I have game design to work on after all.

It’s going to be great, glorious fun.

Just a (badly written) comment going on at Grimwell. The origin is EverQuest 2 but I finish to go back to an old topic (nicely titled “Fuck the industry”).

I paste it here in a reversed order. The first part is the one I care about.

EDIT- After reading Darniaq’s comment (on Grimwell) I believe the term I should have used is “accountability”. Instead of “responsibility”.

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Darniaq:
I agree. These games need a consistent Creative Visionary, someone who’s hired to both deliver the game and manage it in Live. The trouble though is that developing and maintaining are so different, the people who do either do not necessarily have the interest to do both. I would be very interested to hear from people who’ve done this stuff whether pre-launch developers have enough love to maintain a game, are so burned out they can’t wait to find a new opportunity, or are just more interested in delivering a game than mother hen’ing it in perpetuity.

Yes, but I add more to that scenario. It’s not something about just a “leader”, it’s the whole team that is included in that reasoning.

The “Lead Designer” or whatever is just the predominant figure but even all the other developers need a commitment to the same degree instead of switching between positions, games and even companies.

The fact is that noone is responsible of anything. As they start to see some serious problems they try to jump the ship before it’s too late (if they can). That’s what I mean for the lack of commitment and why I accuse the industry for lack of passion and dedication.

There are designers that keep doing glaring mistakes and instead of facing the consequences they just move somewhere else collecting more and more “references”. The same for the positions less publicly exposed.

The point isn’t to fire these devs as the problems come up and as they show some incompetencies. The point is to FORCE them to learn. FORCE them to face the consequences of what they did instead of cashing and fleeing somewhere else.

That’s why a stable team is REQUIRED. It’s the only way to force them to commit to something and take the direct responsibility of what they are doing. So that they are FORCED to not glide and ignore the problems and the complaints.

I find this situation like the speculation in the economy. Noone cares about anything because it’s all relative, with no consequences and no implications. When you are bouncing from game to game and from project to project how the hell you can develop a serious competence that isn’t a pointless list of references?

It sounds like collecting badges in Pokemon.

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Scott Hartsman:
Not to be argumentative (maybe the opposite of argumentative?), but I agree with you that iterating most kinds of development is the right way to go. I disagree that it’s the exact opposite model of the one we use.

For starters, grouping all of our games into “how SOE develops” isn’t really an accurate description. Each team runs their own show. Ours is extremely heavy on the concept of prototyping and iterating.

The things in the game that have received the highest marks were the places where we were able to take the time to iterate exactly as you describe, which is our preferred method of adding to the game.

I was using the concept of “iteration” in a different context.

You think and use it as a way to develop an expansion till a final stage when it ships. And you say that if the various parts are being reiterated enough the final result will improve.

My point is slightly more philosophic. The idea is that the development of a mmorpg, as a whole, doesn’t end. So the idea of an optional expansion ot develop and ship in a final stage is ALREADY a distortion of the model.

Now, my point was specific to the PvP. Let’s take an example like DAoC and you’ll see that the PvP layer has been developed, expanded and tweaked FOR YEARS. Still, it has a number of glaring problems and a nearly infinite potential that is still waiting there.

This is the background of my critics. The point is not if you were able to fit enough iterations before the launch of the expansion. The point is to set-up a development process that keeps buiding on the basis of what was developed before.

The PvP REQUIRES this. You cannot wrap it up in “x” months and ship to then move the focus on something else. Already in the paradigm the development is simply not supposed to end. If not with the death of the game itself.

It’s surely possible and due to set various “stages” where the work can be packed up in an expansion in order to coordinate the economical aspect with the development itself. But the development itself shouldn’t be caged within a time limit and a feature list. Exactly because the strength of these games is in the possibility to build on top of what you worked before instead of just restart from zero with another, unrelated layer.

Simplifying even too much:
-It’s bad to think to the PvP and the features of an expansion in general as something to reiterate enough in order to offer a decent product to then “ship and forget”. Because the dev team will move on something else as the previous product is “done”.

-It’s good to use these expansions as a way to market and “chunk” a type of development that goes on uniformly and cohesively behind the scenes and that keeps building on top of the previous work. That keeps refining and reiterating the old parts. Without never stopping this process and using the new features only to integrate them with the rest instead of making everything independent and unrelated.

The point is that nothing is “done”. Never. A mmorpg should be always a building process that should never restart from zero but that should keep using its “age” as an advantage instead of a weight.

To achieve this result the development needs to be readjusted. The reiterations are not supposed to stop when the expansion ships.

They should never end.

I’m reading the comments on the FoH boards about the video I commented below. In particular I want to save a comment:

Every race shown is the exact same body with a different head attached. They may be bigger or smaller, but the actual model/stance is exactly the same for every one.

I underline this because it’s a general trend in the industry that I already commented. It seems that the graphic is more and more trivialized as what is shown on a screenshot and nothing else.

This is an overly superficial way to consider the graphic layer of a game. The graphic is a lot more and deeply tied with many fundamental aspects of the game. It’s composition, it’s animation, it’s personality and uniqueness in what you are showing and the direct interface between you and the gameplay. The graphic IS the gameplay. It is the feedback you receive and that you’ll consider to make your choices. It’s the same about the world design. You can take and consider it just as an irrelevant background more or less pretty or you can delve deeper. Only then you’ll know that world design is directly gameplay, interaction, a narrative unit and so on.

The animations are more and more considered as “fluff”, not important, not relevant. They just need to be functional and the rest is superfluous. What is considered important is just the dimension of the textures or the number of polygons. The actual animations are trivialized, cloned and reused for every character. We have games that give you hundreds of ways to customize your character, to change the color of the eye, the style of the beard, millions of different armor types to wear completely bumpmapped. But then you’ll keep running as every other character in the world with clipping problems everywhere.

Recently Mythic redid from zero all the character models in DAoC, but they didn’t care to upgrade the animations.
Star Wars Galaxies offered since release an insane amount of customization for each character, but the animations are generic and perfectly cloned for all the races in the game.
Till now the only game with some attention and specific development on the animations has been World of Warcraft.

As if the animations were completely superfluous for the beauty of the graphic and the gameplay.