Defending Erikson versus Martin apologists – Part 2

Now, i didn’t see your posts, but from the reaction here on the board, it sounds to me like you made personal attacks.

If you read my reconstructed post and didn’t see any “personal attacks” it’s because there were none.

I imagine that Werthead considered a personal attack when I said he was making false claims and then the part at the end where I was calling people hypocritical. It was all done in context and with argumentation. There were no gratuitous personal attacks.

Again, your being pretty subjective with your response. What some have argued (perhaps Werthead has, i can’t remember), is that the series will not be done with 10 books because HALF OF THE SHIT THAT HAPPENS IN THE SERIES HAS YET TO BE EXPLAINED.

I had understood his point. Nor I have claimed the contrary.

That’s why I was calling it a linguistic problem. That’s why I said it’s subjective whether or not the series receives a proper, satisfying closure. You can’t set objectively what a reader may find satisfying or not. Nor you can say objectively if enough plots threads are resolved to match your own personal idea of “complete”.

What I pointed out and that is objective is that the Malazan series has 10 books. And while the world in there is not “over”, the series is. It has a start and an end, and it followed the pattern that was set and delivered. You people are arguing even on this.

If I make a project to build an house, set a timeframe and budget. Then I go on to build the house and in the end it takes twice the time, twice the budget, and there’s no roof. Am I allowed to call the project a “failure”?

I didn’t say ASoIaF was a failure because it sucks or because it wasn’t successful enough. I called it a failure, as a project, because Martin himself wasn’t able to match his own promises and doesn’t seem to be able to stay ahead of the thing and give it a proper closure (objectively as in: maintaining his own declared plan of writing and finishing the series in 7 books).

By “your own” definition of “complete”, ASoIaF may not be complete even if those 7 books are finished. So comparing Malazan to ASoIaF on this argument is wrong. You are using two different standards.

I don’t remember him justifying it that way. As for quality, its BEEN proven. ASOIAF is superior to Malazan in any number of ways

It’s your opinion that it is superior. And I would restrain to use popularity as a proof since even “Twilight” may end up as more popular than ASoIaF and so of a better quality. Let’s just not go there.

When I said quality has yet to be proven I intended for books past 3 (it’s with book 4 that difficulties started to rise and that many readers considered not up to the quality standard Martin set). Now that the delays are getting more important and that Martin is struggling more and more, quality has to be proven. We can’t say if in the end he will actually match the readers expectations. For now he justifies the delays in the name of quality, but quality has yet to be proven (considering that Martin may find harder to write the series now compared to 12 years ago, which is part of my argument).

Everyone here wishes that Erikson as well started to delay his books indefinitely in the name of quality. I’d be wary to suggest that. First because it’s utterly ludicrous since writers aren’t computers and you can’t simply order a writer to work under set rules, assuming that what works for Martin would work for Erikson and vice versa. Secondly because it’s not an absolute rule that a delay equals better quality.

As China Meiveille said, Martin is not your bitch. As a fan of the series, it is troubling how long its taking Martin to finish even the next book, let alone others. As for not being successful, well, some people with money are pumping considerable amounts of said money into a tv project based on the novels. But if speaking strictly about the novels, how in gods green garden do you know what his original intent was? And how, exactly, did he betray it?

Yes, I see you have a problem not recognizing the context in which I used the word “successful”.

As far as critical response, popularity and whatnot, ASoIaF is successful. Without a doubt more successful than Malazan will ever hope to be. Not only I know that but I even see very well the motivations.

I said it betrayed its original intent as in taking way longer than Martin originally planned and plausibly not being completed as Martin originally planned (as in: seven books). Erikson is planning new projects now that his first is near completion, projects set in the same fictional world, but different projects. Martin has to finish this one before he can plan another, even if a new one could be as well set in the same fictional world. Can’t you see that their situation is not the same?

Heres a concept he could have used. Cut the books in half with a decent editor, loose a shit ton of reduandant stories, and move on. And when i mean cut in half, i mean don’t have the friggin things 1000 pages nearly every book. He could have fulfilled his contract obligations by simply having 500 page books and increasing the quality of each one.

Only that “increasing the quality” is what you say.

In the same way people are saying each book should be 300 pages considering that all they enjoy are the fireworks. The problem is that not everyone wants that. Because what sets apart Malazan is not the fireworks, but everything else.

Different readers enjoy different things, even within the same book. You should also realize at this point that Erikson is “not your bitch”. Not writing what you enjoy the most. In the same way Martin doesn’t write stuff that I enjoy the most. But even if I don’t like especially what Martin writes you don’t see me pretending to give him writing lessons, while people here do it all the time in regards to Erikson (like you did up here).

In particular, Erikson himself made this point clear:
Some of my readers would rather I cut to the chase quicker than I do; to which I can only respond that my reasons for doing what I do continue to satisfy me, and trust me, if I am not satisfied absolutely no-one else will be. I am very deliberate in my approach, and I would humbly remind those impatient readers that their pace is not my pace; that reading is an engagement distinct from that of writing, and that at no time do I pad for the hell of it – again, I have my reasons!

By the way, while looking up that quote I found another that demonstrates pretty well how some claims Werthead made were utterly wrong. This is what Werthead says:

The Malazan Book of the Fallen was a project deliberately solicited to be a money-making series for Bantam UK. It was, literally, picked up to do the business for them that Wheel of Time did for Tor and Orbit. That’s why they asked for 10 books when Erikson wasn’t thinking about anywhere near that many and that’s why they offered him such a colossal sum of money for it.

So he says that it was Bantam idea to propose him a series of 10 books and that they convinced him through a colossal sum of money.

That’s not what Erikson himself says though:
I admit to some coyness at first. When the deal was being made for the first novel, it was a one-off contract, with first rights of refusal for the next one. It was only after ‘Gardens’ came out that I made mention of my grander scheme: ten books. And since by that point I was finishing up the second novel, Deadhouse Gates, I suspect it was seen as encouraging, in that I was able to deliver manuscripts at a decent pace, and I didn’t balk at the notion of doing one a year. It’s hard to consider the notions of everyone else involved — I was, I suspect, both confident and naive, as only unseasoned writers can be. The series never felt too big, never felt impossible, or frightening. All I knew was an immense, burning impatience. I had the arc laid out in my mind: I knew where it was going and where and how it would end and I just wanted to get there.

Also, about the series not being complete as you argued thorough this thread:
With the tenth novel, The Crippled God, the ‘Malazan Book of the Fallen’ ends. While Cam (Ian Esslemont) has a few more to write in that sequence, I do not. The two new trilogies I am signed to write share the world and its cosmos, but they do not resume the arc of the Fallen. This may seem an odd distinction, maybe even an unconvincing one, but it is sharp in my mind. The whole point of the Malazan Book of the Fallen was to deliver a self-contained series, a slice of history, and to give the readers a sense of completion when they read the last line on the last page.

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