Saving part of a thread discussing the mandatory use of Voice Chat in WoW’s endgame raids. It’s pretty much self-explanatory.

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First off, I am sick and tired of just about every single half-way serious raiding guild REQUIRING Teamspeak/Vent. Not to mention, all of the other add-ons. This game is NOT that complicated. Its actually pretty easy. Not to mention, you can just look up just about any boss encounter for the strategies.

I don’t know about you, but when I get off of work, I really, really do not want to listen to 39 other voices barking orders or what-not. Its distracting, and annoying as heck. And theres always that one EMO, pimply-faced kid that is going through the onset of puberty with that cracking voice. Ugh. I simply like to enjoy this game to escape from real-life and enjoy my hobby. Having to listen to 39 other people for 4-6 hours does not fit in with either.

TS/vent didn’t come with the game. All of these add-ons did not either. I’m pretty sure that everything up to and including Nef can be beaten pretty much naked. Besides, if Ts/vent is such a necessity, let the GM/officers have it, with comms going between just the raid leader and the leader of each group.

I’ve gotten through the entirety of ZG without using anything but what came in the game(okay, I use shardtracker, sue me). Haven’t really done MC but once or twice. I was also in a successful PvP guild that won far more than it lost. No TS/vent amongst the members there. Worked just fine.

WoW is a game notorious for not really “bonding” its players together. I have made no friends in here. I don’t want to have to hear stranger’s voices from within my own home. I have no problem taking orders, as long as they are typed.

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Kay.

And honestly, I don’t care one way or another. Vent is fun, at time, and it does make things easier, but it’s by no means a “requirement” for us. Two of our people are on Macs; they can’t use it no matter what they do. One of our members just flat doesn’t want to join. *shrug* Doesn’t bug me.

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We don’t demand people use these mods but we suggest that people do. They do make things easier especially during the learning processes. That said, our guild is really quite friendly and so our TS conversations are often pretty light.

Also, in a raid, only the raid leader should be talking anyways.

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Hyacinth:
We’ve managed to play online games of all sorts requiring teamwork for quite some time and I am mostly deaf (using something like Vent or TS just wouldn’t work).

For years we managed before the technology was even “there” enough to use such a thing. I can understand that it would make things easier in some cases but I can also imagine what it must sound like when everyone gets excited.

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These are my feelings exactly. Having a teenage party line channeled into my living room for hours at a time sounds like torture to me. I tolerate some voice comms for shooter games, but those don’t go on for hours like WoW can, and I can freely bail whenever I want.

WoW IS easy mode. I played EQ for years, and went on all kinds of end game 40+ man raids. We never needed to use voice chat. Leaders took a few minutes to type a strategy for the encounter, and people followed it. There is nothing in the WoW encounters that can not be addressed before hand, and a strategy composed for in advance. Relying on voice is a crutch for people to lazy to type a few complete sentences before the fight begins.

I have no problem if other people want to use voice chat. It’s just not something I want for myself. Yes, that means I’m barred from basically all end game raiding guilds. Fine with me. I don’t plan on filing a discrimination lawsuit.

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PEOPLE STOP WHINING.

Fine! dont use vent/TS, but if we require our members to Have it, and you dont, then dont join us! and stop complaining.

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This is very simple.

If TS/Vent aren’t at all necessary, then you shouldn’t have any problems finding guilds that don’t use/require them.

Right?

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Wrong.

It’s by no means necessary to take a 10-man raid into Scholomance. It was built for a 5-man team, and it can be done by a 5-man team, especially post-nerf.

So you shouldn’t have any problems finding a 5-man team, right?

Wrong. You can shave a little difficulty off of it by taking in 10, so most people refuse to go in with less.

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Hyacinth:
I don’t think so, no. Necessary to run raids? Nope. Might be convenient, might be a preference but not necessary.

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the thing is, MC is hard enough at it is. the main reason guilds require things like this is why make it harder than it has to be? it may not be necessary but it sure makes things a lot easier.

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Hyacinth:
Hard for me to argue this because I can’t use Vent/TS *but* we discussed the others in our guild using it and the concensus was that they didn’t see a need. Since we don’t do PUG stuff much and since we know our classes/jobs there’s not too much need to talk. We have a shorthand system down (Peel/mage or sap/mob etc.) which works just fine and has through many games.

It’s a convenience I think and no objection to that but necessary? Nah.

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You can do it just fine without TS/vent but it just adds to the fun factor.

The pure hilarity of some of the things that happen on TS is worth it. Also makes it 10x easier for when things go bad or need someone to help you out.

And you can also laugh at your MT when he does something stupid and dies :)

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Bingo. If it were not necessary, if it did not help so very much, guilds that want to raid (with few exceptions) would not require it.

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Hyacinth:
Disagree. Having a preference can and does lead to a guild requirement. Many guilds prefer Vent/TS, they like being able to talk to one and other. That’s fine, more power to ’em but it’s not necessary to play the game well.

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There is no usable Mac client available. Either Vent or Teamspeak. Both require the Speex (sp?) codec which most guild-hosted servers do not support.

The Ventrillo software is late-alpha stage. It crashes within a few seconds of startup.

I certainly have no particular desire to listen to 39 other people playing out their angst, although there are a couple of people in the PUG that runs MC that I would like to hear. I am sure that while we are trying to take down Ragnaros it might be helpful. But if you can’t respond to the CT_RaidAssist notices, you will NEVER respond to the audibles coming out of the headphones.

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Abalieno:
Maybe it doesn’t bug you but I assure you that it’s been impossible for me to find a guild to join for about four months.

After being kicked out of the previous one because I couldn’t comply with the requirements.

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Abalieno:

Disagree. Having a preference can and does lead to a guild requirement. Many guilds prefer Vent/TS, they like being able to talk to one and other. That’s fine, more power to ’em but it’s not necessary to play the game well.

Yes, but that “preference” is becoming a ****ing accessibility barrier for other players that cannot comply.

And if you cannot comply you are out. Goodbye.

No matter of your “choice”. I wish I had a damn choice.

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Hyacinth:
You do. I’m deaf. I can’t use it either and I’ve yet to run into any problems with people trying to insist that I do. Yes, some would like for me to but they don’t freak when I tell ’em I can’t.

We did raiding and all kinds of things that required teamwork in other games and managed just fine without TS/Vent and we’re doing just fine here.

I wouldn’t care to be part of a guild that did insist on something like that. Not because I can’t hear but because I think it would be *more* distracting to have to keep track of what’s on my screen, what’s going on in my ears and I know that people can be excitable and go off on a verbal tangent in the middle of a tough fight.

So, I’m sorry that there are guilds that are excluding you but it still is NOT a necessity. They are making it a requirement for their guilds much like many guilds don’t want any more or insist upon certain levels or professions.

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Your grievance is with your guild, not with the larger WoW community or with the game’s developers.

It has almost no bearing on voice-comm software either. This is about some guild’s rules and your objection or compliance to them. If a guild requires you to commit 4 hours a night at 8PM PST, and you can’t comply, it’s their obligation to enforce guild rules or they would compromise their ability to organise and lead their raids.

Leading a raiding guild really _is_ work, and when officers take action to control or limit non-compliant members, it isn’t always personal or acrimonious—they’re just doing their job.

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Abalieno:

You do. I’m deaf. I can’t use it either and I’ve yet to run into any problems with people trying to insist that I do. Yes, some would like for me to but they don’t freak when I tell ’em I can’t.

Well, maybe this works for you and the fact that you are deaf triggers a “politically correct” compassion that make them not answer harshly.

But if I ask to join a guild and say I cannot use the voice chat, the answer is one: Goodbye.

Yeah, I know it’s not a necessity but as someone else has written:

Whether or not Voicechat is an ease, or it’s required, or people could use hierarchical menus to get soundbytes (ala PS) is irrelevant in that its forever arguable.

What actually matters is the rules players set. You can mock and sneer all you want, but if 39 people use Voicechat for Raiding or PvP or just %@$%ing around at the Auction House, the 40th person is going to use Voicechat too.

Players make the rules. Everyone else decides to follow them or gets excluded.

And the players care less than zero if this damages the community or excludes some players.

There’s the phat loot and the shortest route to it.

This is what these games are currently “teaching” us.

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Hyacinth:

But if I ask to join a guild and say I cannot use the voice chat, the answer is one: Goodbye.

Then they’re intolerant and I would wonder why you’d want to hang out with them to begin with?

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Abalieno:
Because, as I said, I wish I had a choice.

I don’t know if my server is particularly bad but I don’t think so and I suspect that it’s exactly the same on every other.

These games are essentially functional and the players themselves set standards that you just ought to respect if you want to be part of the group.

The devs are partly responsible because the higly specialized content brought directly to create highly specialized guilds that completely isolate themselves from the rest of the community. Even if you can use the voice chat you could have an hard time finding a rading guild if you aren’t a priest or a druid.

The content is being shaped around 20-40 men instances and the guilds, as a consequence, are being shaped around that content.

Leading a guild is already a onerous task. Dealing with people (exceptions) who cannot comply with the standards is usually an added burden that noone really wants to deal with.

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WoW is an easy game. In MC, what, you have one, maybe 2 jobs to do? Not hard at all, and definately DOES NOT require 39 others talking amongst themselves to figure it out.

This game has been hijacked by lazy people. I bet the same guild leaders/officers are the ones who have a compass in their car because they don’t know how to use directions. Point out this infallacy, and they reply “oh, but why make it hard on yourself?” NOT HAVING TS/VENT IS NOT MAKING IT HARD ON YOURSELF. Pressing this requirement on another guild member means you are insecure, intolerant, untrusting. You don’t need it. If you want it so bad, use it just amongst the raid leader and party leaders.

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Abalieno:

This game has been hijacked by lazy people.

Give a look to this.

“Being lazy” seems the whole point of playing games. Even for the academics.

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You might be missing a few points.
Q: What is the fastest way for people to communicate ideas quickly to each other?
A: Verbally

You can argue that you can type really fast but you cannot argue that people might not read it. Chat channels can get mobarded with information.

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Abalieno:
Yes, noone is arguing that voice chat isn’t an useful “ease”.

The problem is when it becomes mandatory, excluding those who CANNOT use it.

Those who don’t have a choice.

Saving comments from the developers from the official forums in the debate “hardcore Vs casual players” (first, second):

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Tigole:
I think there are some very valid points in this thread. You’re touching on a very difficult issue. Many of the proposed solutions sound easy (and are easy in theory) but are very challenging in either implementation or execution. By implementation I mean, things such as a dungeon that dynamically scales in numbers and difficulty according to the number of people and level of those people (while certainly a very cool idea) is very complicated to do right (right being the key word here). Execution is another thing altogether. Execution refers to how and why we would do such things. Sometimes there are things that we can technically implement but make a concious design decision not to (for example, proxy bidding in the Auction House). So in terms of execution, I’m not confident at this point that some of the proposals are completely sound.

I’m a little disappointed that people criticize us as not doing things for the casual gamer. The whole basis of our design philosophy has been to create a game that appeals to players both casual and hardcore. The very fact that players who vehemently call themselves “casual” reach level 60 in our game (have max tradeskills, have epic mounts) seems like a testament to me that we achieved that goal (at least somewhat).

In fact, we often prioritized things in favor over the hardcore. For those of you who have been playing the game since release, you’ll remember that the game shipped with Onyxia and Molten Core as our only raid content. Rather than rushing to get Blackwing Lair, ZG or AQ done, we then focused our attention on Maraudon and Dire Maul. We prioritized those two dungeons OVER raid content even though we were lacking in the latter department, because we wanted to fully flesh out our casual experience first.

We need to strike a very challenging balance here. We want to provide for players who raid, players who solo, players who pvp, players who tradeskill, players who merchant, etc… and the list goes on. When we add content for a group that doesn’t include you, it shouldn’t be taken as an affront to your playstyle. We have a lot of people we need to keep happy, and we’re not going to forget about anyone.

Now the main thing we need to do is get The Burning Crusade out. Players at 60 who do not wish to raid want more of what they had in levels 1-59 which was Questing With a Purpose. When we can add a suite of new content and raise the level cap, we can give players the sense of progression they are looking for. They’ll get more of that WoW experience that they came to love. The Burning Crusade has a very balanced combination of solo/group/raid/pvp content. There will be brand new, non-max level dungeons. There will be max level 5 man dungeons. There will be a 10 man raid, something we’ve never done before (at least endorsed). We’re very aware of what people want and we’re going to deliver on those needs.

But it would simply be unfair to cut our current raid game short because people think it’s somehow hurting their play experience. It’s perfectly ok to NOT raid if that’s not your thing. But there are lots of WoW fans out there that thrive on getting together in large groups to conquer difficult content. And they want (and should be) to be rewarded for that effort.

When we put in a raid, we’re not making a decision to keep content from people. We’re trying to provide for an area of our game that we felt was previosly deficient.

We’re going to continue to patch this game and we’re going to try to make sure there’s something for everyone in each patch. Sometimes, however, there might be content that’s not your thing — i.e. solo/raid/group/pvp. But please remember, we haven’t forgotten about you. Making someone else’s idea of fun gameplay go away isn’t going to magically create more content for you. We need to provide for everyone. I can assure you, we’re working extremely hard to do that.

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Why do you folks have to copy EQ so much? Why can’t you develop your own forms of end-game content?

I’d love to see Blackwing Lair and the bosses and things. I think that’s want most casuals want over items and things, just to do and see everything. One of my favorite moments in this game was fighting the Baron of Stratholme for the first time. Wow, a Death Knight! Here’s the “Warcraft” part of “World of Warcraft”

But you chose to make that extremely difficult to engage in due to an incredibly unimaginative gameplay design

Please stop copying other games, for the sake of innovation and allowing players to experience the world, not just “work” in it

I don’t think you’re being fair here. You yourself pointed out that we provide “epic” feeling content for non-raiding people in 5 man dungeons, citing Baron Rivendale. I’d go so far as to say the boss encoutners in Gnomeregan and Uldman are more epic than endgame content in other games. We provided an Honor System and Battlegrounds to provide other avenues of advancement for certain players. You can tradeskill Epic items without raiding…

You’re more likely to get your voice heard if you keep the posts more productive and less antagonistic. To be frank, part of the allure of Blackwing Lair to people is that it’s so difficult to even get to see the content in there. Could we make it a solo dungeon? Yes. It would take less than a day. Would it still have the same allure? The answer is no.

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Tseric:
There have been a lot of good points and counter-points in this thread. I wanted to chip in my 2cp in terms of design intent and philosophy, so I am going to refrain from comment on the “man-hour/epic#” equation.

What I was going to comment on has been touched on in many respects by Shirokaze, so I shall quote partially (I suggest you read the full post if you haven’t) and comment. Much of what I wanted to say and even the approach is contained in his/her response (beat me to it :P)

The number of players in a run sets a bar on how much you have possible before you just run out of potential. For example, in a five man group, you usually have one tank, one healer, at least two DPS (rogue, hunter, mage, warlock, some combination of these) and then a swing character of some sort (additional DPS or off tank or secondary healer). After a certain point, the damage concievably taken by a single tank caps. The amount of healing that a single or even two healers can do caps. The fact that fewer healers are healing what even in 40 man groups can be ONE maintank for some events means aggro is generated faster. Likewise for DPS, the more they dish out the more they risk capping it out.

More importantly, many of the things that are DONE to 40 man groups simply don’t scale down to five. If you look at every 5-mannable run in the game as is, even UBRS, none of them employ anything terribly complex in the way of their encounters. There may be a reasonably high damage mob or a damage tick, but nothing like Shazzrah where a mob’s teleporting into your casters and AEing them or like Vael where he’s randomly popping off people while giving EVERYONE a unique buff that’s simulataniously killing them. You can’t lose people or afford to lose people in the same way with fewer people.

*snip, edit for length…*

The potential for varied encounters does increase with the number of players you add to the group/raid. This is not to say that you can’t have nuanced and exciting challenges to a 5-person dungeon, but they are going to be decidedly different than what can occur in a 40-person dungeon. With 5-person dungeons, there is no opportunity for elements such as healer rotations, tank rotations (to a lesser extent) or even large(r) parties of elite mobs. Certain abilities of raid bosses do not translate to 5-person groups. How does a Major Domo encounter translate into a 5-person group? Is everyone supposed to tank a minion? How do you design such a thing?

What makes a raid boss truly epic? I can tell you it is not simply a matter of HP. If we buffed Darkmaster Gandling’s HP to that of Ragnaros, he would simply become unbeatable. You could do that with the simplest trash mob and achieve the same results. A 5-person group would not have the stamina to beat it(npi).

Take Nefarion, for example. An ability that targets a specific class for punishment would wreak havoc on a 5-person group. With effectively no way to counter within a reasonable time, one person removed or killed from the group is a significant shift of power. The same cannot be said for Gandling, where a player’s removal from the fight does not certify a group’s doom.

The designers have sought a truly epic feel and play to these 40-person encounters. They continue to elaborate on encounters of this type in a way that is fun for players, but, in all honesty, fun for the devs, too. They are, after all, trying to develop imaginative ways in which to kill you. The nature of some of these raid encounters should convey that clearly.

When it comes down to it, a boss can be considered epic by their ability to crush legions of mortals before them. That is one way of looking at it. These bosses have powers and stature that merit epic rewards, regardless of how players are currently “trivializing” said content. And I use quotes rather facetiously.

As a whole, the designers are currently exploring many facets of what 40 and 20-person raid content can be. They would like to have many dungeons set up for players to select from. However, they would also like to explore the possibilities of content for smaller groups as well. There is definite interest in providing situations in which individual accomplishment stands out that much more. It is simply a matter of what is being explored, designed and implemented now/soon, as opposed to later.

But, I digress…

To answer directly the question posed in the subject line: No, it mustn’t, but it is more available/likely now due to the epic nature of encounters.

P.S.- Sorry for the rambling…

Saving a post on the official forums.

Author is: Grantham, Paladin on Argent Dawn server, Invictus Decora guild.

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As of November 15th, 2005, I have successfully attained the rank of Grand Marshal (rank 14) on my Alliance Paladin. I have been PVPing, first part time then full time, since the honor system came out. I ramped up the amount of participation I had in the system as my rank advanced. I did stall at Knight-Captain (rank 8) for about six weeks after the battlegrounds came out as I focused more on Alterac Valley than the more honor rewarding Warsong Gulch.

It took a lot of things to get where I am. It took the cooperation of a good group, the understanding of players who were willing to scale back their earnings to allow me to surpass them, and the understanding / support of my guild. I would be the ‘success story’ of the PVP / Honor system it seems.

I can unequivocally state that I will never participate in the Honor system ever again. Even if the expansion does not reward former rank 14 players with the level 70 rewards, I will not compete to achieve new versions of the gear I have gained. The system itself is flawed, and in my opinion it is best if people do not get involved in it in. If I had known the real investment needed to advance when I started, I never would have gotten into it.

It is easy to sit back and criticize the choices that GM/HW characters have made when they talk about how much they have had to work to get where they are. The most common statement that the uninformed make is ‘it was your choice, and you should have just stopped,’ or some iteration thereof. I can state that it is not that easy.

There is something called the ‘Dollar Auction’ (sometimes called an ‘American Auction’), commonly used by charities, where when auctioning off an item (or, originally, simply a dollar bill) that the second place bidder must also pay what they bid, but do not receive anything in return. It is extremely common in auctions such as this for bidding to reach a rather silly level (an example is $20 for a standard $1 bill) due to whoever is currently in second place now having invested too much to lose what they are putting down on the table without getting something back. Psychological phenomena prevents the average human being from walking away when there is still a chance of receive some return on investment. Companies around the world continue to pour millions into failing divisions and projects due to the same psychological hurdle.

The honor system plays off this same affect, leaving those who don’t achieve the GM/HW titles with, literally, hundreds of man hours invested with no return. The frustration that this can cause leads to people pushing harder than is healthy to finally get something out of the system. This is where we hear the stories of people sleeping 4-5 hours a day, and then spending all day in the system taking breaks only to eat and use the restroom. Beyond even that, you have people who have their characters played in shifts so that they can have some semblance of a life.

I know people who have spent vacation days from their real life job in an effort to push hard for a next rank or complete the final weeks of the rank 13 to rank 14 transition. I have done it myself, taking four days off of work (November 7 – 10, 2005), so that I could guarantee myself the extra points so that I did not have to continue competing the week of November 15 – 21, 2005.

Even on a ‘soft’ server like Argent Dawn, where the competition is nowhere near as steep as the PVP servers such as Blackrock, Shattered Hand, or Archimonde, those that have achieved rank 14 have at times succumbed to exhaustion, psychological burnout, and general malaise in regards to the game. The system creates a burnout or shell shock affect in the players that participate in it, causing them to cut back on or cease playing the game entirely. In effect, this system can cost Blizzard customers just as constant overtime can cost a company an employee. Anecdotally, many different players on the Blizzard forums report that the rank 14s on their servers all but vanish after achieving their ranks.

There are many achievement oriented people that play MMORPGs, and that is precisely who the Honor system is attempting to hook into participating. Just as the game itself is potentially psychologically addicting (just like a gambler’s addiction, which is very real), the Honor system is even more so. The need to get to that next hurdle or accomplishment to prove to oneself that one is progressing can be extremely strong. This type of compulsion will not show up in everyone, but that is simply due to the fact that every person is different. What affects one person mentally is not guaranteed to work on another. This can lead to decisions that adversely affect the self, just like a gambling addict that sells his car for money to take to a casino.

In summary, I find that the Honor system is not something that is either healthy or constructive. Blizzard has created a system that people can abuse themselves with, and should make changes to it so that the intensive, consecutive time requirements currently in the system are no longer the case. This would be both to show care for their PVP oriented populace, and to retain the customers that often quit after either finishing or no longer wishing to participate in the system. Compete at your own risk.