A cesspit

EDIT- Updated.

Time to archive some stuff. This is a discussion on FoH’s boards about the awful faction grinding mechanics in WoW.
(complete thread)

Enjoy your endgame:

Blizzard’s desire to provide well designed high-end content will prove to be a breath of fresh air for the readers of this site. Unfortunately, I cannot go into much detail at this time but I can say that there are ideas being discussed for the hardcore, end-game player which are nothing short of groundbreaking. You guys, the fans of this site, know how discerning I am when it comes to “uber” content in a game. Trust me, you have much to look forward to.

They were able to hide the painful grind till level 60 to shove it back down your throat in all its splendor all at once.


Wouldn’t it be nice if you could raise your guild’s faction overall? It would be attached to the guild and you only get the benefit while an active member of the guild… Collective effort would not get wasted when people leave.

And this is a wonderful idea. So wonderful that you’ll never seen it implemented.

In WoW a “guild” is a shared chat and a tabard.

Getting faction for this shit is hardly connected to the endgame. The only thread between the two is the fact that you need some fire resist stuff for Ragnaros and it’s very easy for a guild to power a blacksmith to Exhalted and the other professions to whatever else is needed (some at honored, one at friendly I believe). I’m not complaining about the professions that really have holes in their makeup though, because I agree that theres a lot of stuff lacking. I’ll even grant people the fact that some things could be made somewhat less painful, but then again, this shit is supposed to be a grind. Tons of people have been whining about how WoW doesn’t have enough timesinks, so now they’ve implemented a couple. Remember that you don’t HAVE to do it, nobody is forcing you to grind your ass off or scrape your eyes out with a rusty fork.

Err, factioning up people for Thorium Brotherhood is purposely designed to be a guild effort and extremely hard. Yes, stealth-mining as a rogue is a horrible, mind-numbing task, especially now that the instance reset macro is fucked. But the point is that TB faction is one of those things that you only have a very few people at, and the entire guild throws their weight behind those people.

“Collective effort”? Hahahahaha.

Come on, WoW hasn’t anything collective into it. It’s just the greed for more phat leet to drive you further. You are just ready to stab your friend in the eye if that brought to a bigger e-peen.

“Collective goals”? WoW has yet to discover what that means.

What the fuck ever dude. What a crass, baseless statement no doubt grounded in many minutes of raiding guild experience in the live game. Don’t blame your guild’s, yours, or your perception of people’s motivations on the game. When you see people acting like kids at christmas telling you to check your mailbox because there’s a PURPLE BOOK in it, when you see a collective cheer go out that a gutgore ripper finally dropped, when big smiles go around when the long-suffering warlock gets his felheart robe, when every aurastone hammer or sorcerous dagger is met with guildwide glee — when any of these things happen you know people are looking out for eachother. If this is nothing you can relate to then I feel sorry for you and your sad little guild experience.

Nope sorry. It’s still egoistic-driven goals.

Truly communal goals are those involving not only a communal *process*, but also a communal *goal*.

If you need 100 players to kill a dragon that’s a communal process but the goal is still strictly personal and egoistic. You are there for your loot, that’s what the game is teaching to you. Sure, you can also be there for the fun or because you truly what to help your friends, but here we aren’t discussing a personal attitude, but the game mechanic. And the game mechanics NEVER give you communal goals. Just personal e-peens to grow.

The fact that the game FORCES you to group in order to reach your egoistical goal doesn’t make the community strong. Just selfish. Everyone will smile friendly at you till you can offer something to them they value. Well, I consider this AWFUL. It rewards egositic attitudes and I’ve seen plenty of drama and guilds collapsing just because someone else offered more phat loot.

Demonstrate that your guild can raid high-end content effectively and your requests for applications from new members will multiply for 1000. All ready to leave behind their friends to join the bigger guys where the phat leet is.

Again, please pay attention, I’m not speaking of the players, I’m speaking of what the *game mechanics* favor and encourage.

This game has yet to see truly communal activities where even the *goal* is communal. Not just the process. Give the players truly communal goals that will benefit *everyone involved* and not just the lucky guy winning the lotto or ninjaing the whole thing. That’s what would *truly* build a solid community and not the cesspit of selfish, whiny kids that WoW became.

What makes EQ’s / DAoC’s / FFXI’s mechanics different than WoW’s in such a radical way?

FFXI not much. The guild there is less than WoW. It’s barely a shared chat but at least you can equip and switch different linkshells. I don’t believe that the linkshells themselves are involved in any mechanics, so it’s not a good example.

For what I heard the missions in the two expansions could be considered communal goals. It seems there isn’t any form of phat loot to aquire at the end of the story and just the sense of accomplishment for being able to go through all that hard content. So it’s something you do together as a group and not driven by a personal greed. It’s not perfect but it’s already a positive model.

SWG and Shadowbane have towns. Those are communal goals because what you build is going to affect other players and the final result depends on the work of everyone and benefits the whole group.

DAoC’s RvR is both a personal and communal goal. Personal because you go there for the Realm Points, you gain skills and compete on the various ladders with other players. Then there’s the communal part that is about the real RvR. Guilds compete on a shared frontier, their performance affects everyone who goes there so the players become the *center* of the gameplay and do not just move on a fixed scenery. They can conquer keeps as a guild, upgrade them, defend them and organizing attacks. The “guild” is deeply involved on the mechanics, the guild itself gains points and is listed as every other character and you can also make alliances made up of different guilds. All this as a weight directly on the gameplay and what you do in the frontiers is again a shared purpose, a battle that isn’t personal but shared.

There are then the relics that go even beyond the level of the guild and become a *realm* effort. And here, again, you don’t go there for a personal greed but because you are contributing to a broader goal shared by everyone.

All this depends on how the game is built. The way the players can affect the environment and have an impact. In Eve-Online the corporation can conquer the solar systems and control them. These aren’t personal instances but part of the word shared by everyone else. They can build player-run stations in those zone and again impact the whole game world with their choices and action.

Again the players are at the center.

This is from The Escapist:

In the case of WoW, this has happened because Blizzard has taken the single player RPG, Diablo, and bolted the template over online technologies. If player vs. player combat is poor, or the capacity for self-creation is limited, then it’s because this was a game that took old standards of what makes a game successful and applied them to an entirely new way of interacting. The game is inflexible, focused on the individual and acutely reliant on content provided by the developers to keep us entertained. Sure, Bob is with you, and his dwarf looks funny, but you’re not exactly getting anywhere. There’s nothing unique here; you are, as one Icelandic games developer memorably said to me, “just queueing to be next on the theme park ride.” It’s empty, and you can’t do much to fill it up.

Communal goals require some impact. Because there’s the need to have an effect on more people or build something *together*.

There are already some examples out there but not many. You really do not need me to figure out what is a truly “communal goal” because, as I said, it’s just something to achieve or build where the *process* may be both communal or personal, but where the *goal* is shared. It affects and benefits a group of players.

The point is that in WoW the guild *doesn’t exist* at the level of the gameplay. I don’t know any mechanic in the game that is aware that there is a guild system, correct me if I’m wrong.

In DAoC not only you can conquer keeps as a guild, not only you can merit and realm points, not only there are statistics and alliances, but you can also get missions for the whole guild.

The point is that, in a way or the other, the game is *aware* that a guild exists and some of the mechanics revolve around it. I ranted a lot against Mythic because they didn’t go further on this path, but on WoW they are way behind.

Again, you don’t need me to imagine possible features with truly communal goal. You can just go to the first page of this thread and there’s a guy suggesting to link the factions to the whole guild. That’s one way to make the process truly communal and also a way to have the guild recognized by the mechanics in the game.

WoW needs this badly because, as the Escapist article says, from this perspective it is just dull and empty. The players have no impact and all is faked within instances that noone cares about.

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