Remember my design challenges?

The second in particular was thought to balance the four “tiers” of the level up process, so that the fights between the players could be always fair and balanced and so that all content in the game was always accessible, removing some “barriers”.

This was done by “auto-levelling” an higher character entering a lower level zone. By delevelling that character to the max cap (along the recruit system) it was possible to keep the fights in a zone always balanced, while keeping all the game world accessible and playable all the time. Giving the players an open choice about where they prefer to fight.

So, for example, a tier 4 character could go fight not only in the tier 4 zones corresponding to his level, but also de-rank to 1, 2 or 3 and go fight in those lower-level zones. Permeable barriers, permeable tiers.

The point of the design challenges was to offer some design solutions founded on my ideas and watch if Mythic ones, in the case they differs from mine, were going to be better or worse than what I proposed.

We have already something. From the grab bag:

Q: Will a character of Tier 1 be able to compete at all, even if poorly, against a character of Tier 4? Will multiple Tier 1 characters be able to take on and defeat a Tier 4 character?

A: This is a question with many potential implications, so don’t read any more into this than my exact words. Also, please remember that we are still a long way from launch, and that this may change.

Higher tier players who enter lower tier zones will not be able to attack or be attacked by lower tier players. However, if a lower tier player wants to enter a higher tier zone, all bets are off, and attacking/being attacked can happen.

The specific answer to your question is that Tier 1 players cannot win a one on one fight with a Tier 4 player. A pack of Tier 1 players will be able to cause harm to a Tier 4. We have not yet set an exact level of intended damage (and it will vary hugely depending on the player and the circumstances), so I cannot give you a specific answer.

See the part I underlined. Yeah, lame.

I’m already winning ;)

There’s more. In my first design challenge I analyzed a way to coherently lay down the structure of Warhammer’s PvP based on the parts that they already disclosed: skirmishes, battlefields, scenarios and campaign.

In my proposed structure the skirmishes and battlefield were exactly how Mythic defined them. A persistent zone, with a PvP territory. You enter this territory and you can fight. My proposal was to use the “instanced” scenarios as a cohesive, automated part of the overall structure.

Basically players go normally fight in a battlefield. These are persistent. As there are enough “x” players on a battlefield, an instanced scenario is triggered and spawned automatically and all players in the battlefield ported over. So it’s an automated system that instances itself as there are enough players. The more players, the more instances are spawned. Not enough players and only one persistent zone is active.

This had multiple purposes, but it was also an idea to balance the load and the number of players engaged in PvP.

Here’s instead Mythic’s way:

Jump into a Scenario and you’ll be automatically grouped via our lobby system for a balanced fight. Scenarios are instanced battles against two groups of equal strength.

Yeah, WoW.

You queue for a Scenario (WoW’s Battlegrounds) and an instance is then spawned on demand.

It’s much poorer version than the one I proposed. It feels faked and not consistent with the rest of the PvP structure. While what I proposed was “transparent” and seamless for the players, better integrated, realistic and tied more tightly with the rest of the structure of the PvP (as the instances were triggered to balance the load, not to remove the persistence).

Sad that all that Mythic is doing is copying WoW on every aspect. As I wrote before, they are repeating the exact mistake they made with DAoC ToA (copying EQ, in that case).

Scenarios offer different game play, ranging from Deathmatch to Capture the Flag to Assault.

Heh. It’s so saddening to see PvP treated like that. Why things cannot change? Why we have to deal with this shit?

I just cannot accept it.

Realm vs. Realm (RvR) has come a long way since it was first introduced in Dark Age of Camelot. We’ve had over five years of experience with the system, and we’ve learned both its strengths and its weaknesses. The RvR gameplay being implemented in WAR is truly a next generation implementation of the original system.

So you learnt deatmatches and CTF from playing DAoC?

Be ashamed.

Important enough to be used as a post, I was answering to a comment. I also want to say that this idea is easily portable, so not particularly tied to a game, that’s why I proposed it alternatively for Warhammer or DAoC. I believe it’s a good idea, with very important and diverse objectives, and shaped completely around the theory of “permeable barriers” (defining spaces, without enforcing them).

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Obviously, when a higher level character enters a lower level zone, his equipment also decrements alongside his level, so that the difference in power between this newly deleved character and a character that has just entered the zone are kept to a minimum.

No, building a system that delevels equipment would be too complicated and even risk to mess with the database.

The idea is a compromise: to enter a lower level PvP zone you need to go to a “recruiting office”, where they will confiscate all your higher level items and put them in a vault, then delevel you and finally give you a paper that you have to consign to the guards so that you can enter the zone.

So each zone will basically have a vault where you can store your used equipment and take it back whenever you want to go playing there. Which would also help to reduce “twinking”.

However, if old armor doesn’t level up with you, then what’s the reason to stay in the same zone to collect all the armor sets, if they’re not going to net you any benefit once you’re out of the zone?

The armor sets you can “earn” in a zone are balanced to be used in that zone. As I said, your character continues to earn experience and levels even if it will be temporarily stuck at the level cap till you don’t leave the zone.

When you leave the zone you will be prompted to get your character bumped up to the max level he reached, but with his current equipment. Items are static, they don’t level nor delevel. So you have to catch up, craft or buy more up-to-date armor and weapons.

Game design should make sure that this isn’t a big issue. It would also encourage the player to not skip the PvE content in the game as it will be used to better outfit your character for the new zone.

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After you’ve ‘completed’ a zone and moved on, why would you want to visit it again with the same character?

For three reasons, essentially:

1- Because you may want to join your friends who aren’t at the same level of you.
2- Because it’s about PvP, and PvP doesn’t “wear out” like PvE.
3- Because there are special armor sets, trophies, ranks and medals that you may want to collect.

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I’m not sure that level 40 players would particularly want to temporarily part with their best stuff, their levels, and go to zones for level 5s

I’ve given some reasons about why you should “desire” that in the comment above. Besides, it happens ALL the time in DAoC, where there are plenty of players who want to play in one BG because it’s where they are having fun.

In DAoC you would lose ALL progress, and yet the players still want it. In my idea you don’t even lose progress doing so and you are NEVER locked out permanently from a zone as in DAoC.

Assumedly, you’re not going to scale the experience from a zone, so even if you keep earning it, it’s not going to be as good as experience from the zone that matches your level.

No, the experience you gain IS scaled. In the sense that you would gain about the same experience you would get if you were at your “real” level killing a same level creature. Ideally the experience progression is also linear (but it wouldn’t be a big issue if it wasn’t). For example requiring to gain 100 xp points to go from level 1 to 2 as from level 49 to 50.

What I want is that you always gain the same amount of points you would get by killing a same-level creature. So in the case your true level is 20 killing a level 20 creature you would get about the same xp points you would get if you are deleveled to 10 killing a level 10 creature.

This applies to the *experience*. Instead the items are static. So yeah, a level 5 zone will give you level 5 items. When you exit it you could be already at level 10 if you decide to stay for longer and go for the trophies, medals and the other rewards I described. But your equipment would realtively suck and you would have to hunt for better items (which, again, shouldn’t be a problem).

As I recently commented on Lum’s blog, Warhammer may have the best implementation of “age” in a mmorpg, as I agree with Ubiq that it’s one of those bad ideas that just don’t die.

The way this system is implemented in Warhammer is instead interesting because it adds something without leading to other problems. Already in other games like Star Wars Galaxies (and UO too?) the physical appearance of your character wasn’t just defined and then locked as the character was created, but could be modified later on via other professions, like the “image designer”.

In Warhammer the idea is that “age”, “look” and “level” will be tied together in one progression. So not only you gain levels, but you’ll also see your character age and also further specialize his look. So that dwarves will grow longer beards or braids and so on. It’s a good idea on its own because it just adds more customization without really having an active role in the gameplay. It creates a better bond between the player and the character, but without the “age” becoming a negative element that eventually cripples your character and wastes all the time and dedication you put into it.

It also makes the players more recognizeable, as you would be able to identify a new character from one who has seen already many battles.

This is why I started to think that the idea of a “customization-in-progress” of your character would match prefectly the other idea I suggested about the recruit system (the second one). The problem is that with a linear customization, as the one Mythic suggested, all the “uniqueness” of your character is kinda lost. Why? Because the zones are tiered (I think). Every ten levels you move to the next “tier” zone. So you’ll always be surrounded by characters that more or less have the exact same customization choices you had as well.

The surprise and interest about seeing a veteran player passing by and looking much different would be lost, because all the players will be likely instanced around their levels, so that veteran player will never share the same space of lower level players and be admired for his unique look. The kind of awe that you feel looking at something still far away from your own achievement and that adds so much “flavor” and uniqueness to the game won’t be there. The fact that the player can further customize the character as it gains levels is a good idea, but it would be so much better if new and old players could play *together*. Emphasizing that differentiation.

It’s like if you are in a room filled with people that all have the same height. The customization loses its value if you are surrounded by people all alike, even if you know that outside there are rooms with people with different heights. But if in the same room you can have people of all different heights, then the customization becomes much, much more interesting. A value for the players, a way to actively differentiate themselves and even acquire “status”, because a veteran characters would be suddenly recognized.

But if you move linearly from zone to zone, this is lost, because the progessive customization will be staggered with those zone/tiers. As I tried to explain in the example above. Rooms where all players look alike because they are sharing the exact same moment/progress, instead of giving a value to the unuiqueness that would be possible if different kinds of characters shared the same space.

My idea plugs directly here. Instead of moving “forcefully” from one zone to the other as your character gains levels, the idea is to give the player a CHOICE. He would have the choice to move to the new zone or continue playing where he is. In this last case, THE PROGRESS ISN’T LOST. The player continues to earn experience and levels, but what he gains is only “archived” on his character. Then, as the character leaves the zone, the player will be prompted to bump his character up to his “real” level.

This means that instead of moving from one zone to the other without the possibility to visit again the places you left, you would just unblock the zones, progressively, having them ALL available once unlocked. As the character enters a lower level zone, the system would delevel it to respect the level range of that zone. If your character is level 40 this means that you would be able to access all the zones from level 1 to 40.

Now, why a player would decide to play in a lower level zone? In other games if you do this, you gain zero experience. In DAoC you can disable your experience so that you can continue playing in a Battleground you like. But this would mean that you don’t progress anymore. And you also have no way to access a Battleground below your level, so you can only enter one and only one. But not in my idea. In my idea your character continues to earn progress as if he was playing normally. A character could be active in a zone capped at level 10 and that character would continue earning experience that would be counted toward higher levels. That experience and progress is archived by the system. The character won’t break the level cap of the zone, but as he leaves it, he would be prompted to be bumped up to his real, current level. So no progress would be lost.

I explained better this idea and its goals in the post I linked, but in this case I’m looking at it from the perspective of character customization. The point is: the characters would be level capped to be balanced with the players in that zone (like a “mentoring” system applied to a whole zone), but this could still take full advantage of the character customization described above.

While the characters would be delevelled to respect the cap, the progress made on the physical appearance could be preserved without unbalancing the game. See what I mean? New and veteran players could play side by side in this system and the customization would have a whole new value. Veteran players would be easily recognized as their graphical “perks” would be easily noticeable. A longer beard won’t unbalance the game, of course, but it would become itself a valuable “trophy”. A recognized status. And players love these things.

I reproposed this idea recently on Corpnews. The idea is that not only you have the choice of playing in a lower level zone without losing progress. But there would be incentives doing so, with every zone having something unique to offer and to achieve.

Since it’s shaped around PvP, let’s say that to move to the next zone you need to score about 100 kills. Ok, the idea is that you can get those 100 kills and have enough experience to move to the next tier, continuing to level up. Or you can stay in that zone for another 1000 kills. Why? Maybe because there are special armor sets and perks to unlock and “collect”. Every zone would have some of those and the players could decide to just continue levelling up their characters, or instead try to collect all the special sets.

As I explained on Corpnews these would be an “horizontal” type of reward. Not more powerful gear to farm, but just unique *looking* gear to farm. “Trophies”. Something to reward your dedication to that particular Battleground and make your character unique. A symbol of status.

If all these ideas would be implemented the game would have three customization paths:

– Class specializations, levels, skills and spells (linear and progressive)
– Physical features/decorations (linear and progressive)
– Special armor sets, trophies, medals and “status” items (parallel)

But without those ideas the scope of the costomization that Mythic planned would be weakened. Because new and veteran players wouldn’t be able to play side by side, making the “status” and customization earned kind of redundant as you would be always surrounded by players that share your exact same progress.

(some more precisations here)