More design discussion at Grimwell:

– Combat –

From Keldarin’s comment on the forums:

It is important to remember that this is not THE solution, it is only the first and fundamental part of the total solution.

And that’s the point. More than a year to arrive at this proposed solution and considering it the first and fundamental part. Rejoice.

We�ve been moving very, very fast and that�s something that people don�t seem to recognize.
—
I think that with some of the things that we�re discussing there is potentially to really dramatically change the game in ways that are really going to surprise players. I think that they�re going to be pleasantly surprised by some of the stuff that we want to tackle in the coming months.

Now, where is this absolutely awesome and revolutionary design? It’s a “fatigue bar”. Wow, incredible. What they proposed in the design document is simply about adding a fatigue bar that is present in every other game. With the difference that in this case the bar is also affected by your “hitpoints”.

As I already commented this IS an improvement. Despite what Darniaq says (and is true) the new system works better even if they are adding three more bars to consider. *During* the combat the dynamics should be more readable. But where I agree with Darniaq is that this system still relies completely on what goes on *outside* the combat.

There are tons of interdependencies between all your stats, between the buffs that both directly affect your performance AND modify again your stats, plus the armor that, once again, affect the stats, the resistences and both the regeneration rate of the bars and their actual dimension. IT. IS. A. MESS.

A mess that builds a very complex and deep combat system but if you look at it you’ll notice that NOTHING directly involves the combat. It’s way too messy to actual CARE during the action. What is going on is about centering the pivot of the combat system on the *preparation*. While the actual fight becomes dull (and not just for these reasons).

Now, as I said, their plan is a secure improvement. But this imporvement doesn’t fix the real problems. With these changes they aren’t bringing back old players, nor gaining new ones. They’ll probably bring back only those who had canceled in protest.

So really what�s happened is that we�re looking at increasing the scope of the changes and the updates and additions that we were going to make with the combat balance and make it more creative.

Yes, “creative” for them is finding this new design idea called “fatigue bar” and make it rely on your energy. So basically they are copying every other game with the addition of a dependence on another bar. Is this dependence really an improvement? Darniaq says that this messes even more the rules, I think it does but I also draw a line between combat preparation and the actual combat action. The system is more messy and confused during the preparation but it is also more straightforward during the *action*.

Now, what’s the aim? Where are the REAL problems of the combat in SWG? This is what I wrote in my comment. I agree with their solution but I don’t agree with their *premises*. The changes they are planning could work from a design point of view and concretely adjust the system toward a better state. BUT they don’t change anything if we look at the whole thing from a different point of view.

My design observations have told me that the combat *action* is way more fun when as you fight you also gain more possibilities, you expand your horizon. It’s a combat system that should push you deeper and deeper into the fun of FIGHTING. This not only come from the example I made about WoW, but it comes also from games where the *action* is the whole scope of the game. Think for example to the fighting games, where the more you going on the more you could have access to combos.

So, my belief is that a good (or “better”) combat system is about a system that pushes you into the action, where the fun comes DIRECTLY from the gameplay. Where the system is fun on its own, just by playing it and as a demonstration of this you have a system that involves you in the combat. Which wants you to fight and gives you more and more tools to have fun.

SWG goes in the EXACT opposite direction. It’s flawed in two, big, parts:
1- It relies completely on too many “variables” that are basically impossible to manage during the action. And which just make the game complicated (not *complex*, mind you) and dull to play during the real *action*.
2- It’s based on limiting your possibilities. The more the fight goes on the more you are approaching a defeat. The combat system doesn’t want you to fight. It wants you to win as soon as possible. Every other second is a menace.

It’s way too complex for me to explain what I mean but while the proposed system could work from the strict design point of view, it’s still horrible if we consider a broad point of view. The concrete result is that, despite the changes, the mechanics are still messy, confused, unfun and counterproductive.

Now, when I suggest a creative approach is NOT because I intend to erase all we have already to create a system from the ground up. What I STRONGLY believe is that the combat system MUST rely on different gameplay elements. Every DAMN attempt at fixing it shouldn’t simply be targeted toward fixing the *implementation*. But it should reconsider and adjust the *mechanics*. Because even if the current implementation is broken, what really damages SWG and makes it terribly wrong and unfun is about the MECHANICS involved in the combat.

The fact of having hundreds interdependent variables affecting regeneration values, bonuses, maluses, and recursive variations, brings the combat system to a crisis. Not only it is terribly unfun because you cannot USE that during the real combat but it’s also HELL to balance. It’s a mess that will swamp you down.

I’m saying NOTHING NEW:

Geldon:
The less worthwhile player involvement, the less interesting the combat is. You want to make combat interesting, you need to get that player involved.

Darniaq:
(I totally believe RPG PvP would be more popular if it was based less on pre-battle time and more on during-battle decisions)

So, with THESE premises. With THESE aims. Look back at their proposed design and you’ll draw my exact same conclusions: their system works better but it doesn’t really change a damn thing. It’s still the same broken, umbalanced, unfun and messed game.

This is why I’d push the efforts about adding completely NEW elements and mechanics. To the point that I could still mantain the current HAM system because it isn’t that what DEFINES the gameplay about the combat. This is why not only they need to adjust the ruleset but they also need to rework the dynamics, like the controls.

I’d like to see gameplay elements that should fit better the propose. Like the arcs of fire. The fact that you should need AT LEAST TO FACE your enemy. Use the environment actively, giving more controls so that you can lean from behind a wall, using rocks or other structures to cover parts of your body. And , perhaps, if it’s possible, to WIPE completely the auto target and just create a semi-twitch model. Where it’s not important the skill but still requiring you to ACTUALLY PLAY the game. Having FUN because YOU ARE FIGHTING and not *directly* planning and foreseeing the behaviour of thousands different and interdependent variables.

SWG’s combat is EXACTLY like EQ2 graphic:

Haemish getting married:
If your 3d artists are mediocre, as these guys are, if they cannot imbue the art with a sense of style, the models will be bland suckage. Numbers (i.e. math and high-level abstract technical shit) is not pretty.

I repeat: the proposed design is AWFUL, TERRIBLE. It’s just another demonstration of how much out of track they are. Requoting:

We�ve been moving very, very fast and that�s something that people don�t seem to recognize.

I just see a general tendency. SWG feels fatigued and slow. Despite the insane work it’s just feeling more broken and unsatisfying. I don’t think that adding MORE work will solve the situation because the fatigue is of another nature. What they need is about a different approach. If this happens the fatigue will vanish.

But it doesn’t happen.

The other thing is hologrinding, a system that looked great on paper

Now. How can these guys tell this with a straight face?